Trying to keep marriage going

Posted by freddy (514 days ago)

Several months ago my stupidity and selfishness blew apart my marriage. My wife was devestated at a betrayal of trust but after listening to our friends, her church/faith, her heart and much pleading from me she decided we would continue at least for the meantime to see if she could comne to terms with this. We had a great christmas, moved homes, my wife got a new job and it seemed as if we she could find forgiveness. There have been a couple of periods of maybe two/three days at a time when she felt very bad and did not want me to be around but they passed. A couple of days ago she went vey quiet and distant and then yesterday informed me that she cannot get over the betrayal and cannot trust me and that she thinks we should seperate. I have done and said all I can think to to try to let her see how sorry I am and made every effort to try to make her happy again and thought we were succeeding(she recently put our wedding pictures back up). I really want to make things right but do not know what else to do.

Any sensible suggestions would be appreciated.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

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Posted by zonked (514 days ago)

What did you do to betray her?? Was it an extra-marital affair or something else??

Because I know many wives who forgive their husbands for affairs....!

I know it devastated me, in it's true sense, and I eventually separated from the guy I knew for 16 years and was married for 7!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by sheep (514 days ago)

I to know a few friends who had this done to them or they did it(unfaithful), for a while the marriage went on but even after yrs later they seperated because of it, the thing is they could forgive but not forget.

(I am based in Guangzhou)

Posted by T3 (514 days ago)

Did you both do the counselling thing?

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by freddy (514 days ago)

No, my wife did not want it, but she asked that I attend her church which we have done when we can and she seemed to appreciate that, plus spookily the very first time we were there the sermon was focussed around forgiveness and letting go of sadness and bitterness.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by T3 (514 days ago)

Has she talked it out properly or just tried to blank it out?

Can you get her together with another cheatee who has gotten past it? (not zonked) That might be the best therapy.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (514 days ago)

What the hell, T3?? What do you have against me?? Why would you write not Zonked??????????

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by freddy (514 days ago)

She has a great circle of loyal friends and I am sure at least one of them will have been in that position so I guess she been able to talk things through, the main thing is the let down and breach of trust and this cannot be undone. She has said that no matter how things go for us in the future she will never feel the same total love again and that it is making her sad at times. This is the first time in my life I have felt totally helpless and unable to influence my life. I have tried to contemplate life without my wife in it and I just cannot, we have already come through a lot in the last four years and always been able to support each other through some difficult times which had made us very close. It is easy to say that then why the hell did you let her down and there is no excuse and as a poster said back in September last year I may have to live with the consequences of a drunken ONS for a very long time.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Lovingwife (514 days ago)

My husband betrayed me twice,and we are still together and more we loved each other.It's really hurt if you found out that your hubby betrayed you, but you have to find in your heart whether you still love this person or not anymore, and you have too talk about it.

(I am based in Beijing)

Posted by sheep (514 days ago)

Lovingwife god that be awfull!!, once is bad enough but twice!!.
Im sorry i couldnt forgive twice, i would be in a marriage living everyday without trust, if he comes home late, if he is travelling and so on it would drive me crazy and would never work in the longrun.
Yes we can love someone and still not make it work after that, i love my husband but couldnt make my marriage work with him cheating twice my question would always be when would be the third time?

(I am based in Guangzhou)

Posted by T3 (514 days ago)

Hey zonked, did I get it wrong? You are a cheatee who didn't get past it right? so no use to current cheater. Or other possibility, got past it and spilt for other reasons. Nothing against you at all.

Freddy, beg her friends for ideas then.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by freddy (514 days ago)

One of her best friends was with us at over Chinese new year and I guess the subject must have come up so I can always speak with her for her opinion, she has always commented on how good a couple we make and that she hopes we get past this crisis.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (514 days ago)

I think, Freddy, you can definitely live a life without your wife that is why you probably cheated on her in the first place.

Why did you cheat on her??

There're different types of marriages. In some everything is perfect and still one of them is foolish enough to betray the other. In such cases it is difficult to forgive and forget.

But then there are others where something important is missing. The balance isn't right and one person feels he deserves more or better. In such marriages cheating is inevitable, and easier for the cheatee to forgive and even forget, because somewhere deep down he/she blames himself/herself for the disaster.

But I feel in both the cases it really would be troublesome to live in that marriage even with all love.

But then there always are exceptions. But even in that case, my take would be that the relationship is never balanced. You can't totally erase things from your mind and even a speck of that memory will keep haunting both the partners, not just the cheatee. Afterall, even the cheater has felt let down in the first place (in case of the latter marriage).

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Justin Credible (Part Deux) (513 days ago)

Has your wife fallen "out of love" with you? Sometimes you would do well to take a step back and check to see if the horse you are flogging has still got a pulse.

Ask your wife what it is she wants now so as to not prolong the pain. Ask her if she still loves you and if she can ever see herself forgiving you. Yes you made a mistake, and unfair as it may seem, it will hurt either way you go about it. Its like a barbed arrow in the gut...it hurts going in and it will hurt being pulled out...but as long as you just leave it there, you can almost get used to the dull throbbing pain, cant you?

Thats where is seems your marriage is at, the dull throbbing pain stage. Going to church aint going to help your wife if she isnt willing to fully confront the circumstances of your screwup or the ramifications of you guys pulling the arrow out.

Sorry to hear she is still having a hard time freddy, how many months ago was it that you posted? I remember you well. Patience is important in life, but sometimes its also important to ask yourself how long you are willing to maintain the self flaggelation before there is nothing but a shadow of your former self left to contend with.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Woz's Pup (513 days ago)

Maybe you should have contemplated life without her before you cheated on her.

Sorry dude, if you can't keep it in your pants, you don't deserve to have her. I've never personally been cheated on that I know about, but no matter if you forgive it, you're never ever going to forget it.

I realise this isn't very constructive, but my friend recently cheated on his girlfriend, in true 'young person' fashion, she found him in a club toilets with another girl. Personally I think it's completely stupid to cheat when your girlfriend is in the same club as you, but he did. He's now moved in with her parents and got a job and spends all his days trying to win her back, and it's just not working. She's only trying because she can see how earnest he is. She doesn't want him. She keeps wishing she could turn back the clock and make it never have happened because she sees the girl with him every time she looks at him. It's a lost cause.

Sometimes, if you really love someone and you don't want to keep hurting them, you should let them go.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Justin Credible (Part Deux) (513 days ago)

Ah, you should tell your friend to dump him, there is nothing worse than a woman that doesnt have the conviction to know what she wants. Your friend totally deserves better and shouldnt be guilted into taking someone back purely coz he is earnest. A guy who is willing to shag some stranger in a toilet is hardly Grade A beef. *cringe*

Oh lord, your poor friend.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Woz's Pup (513 days ago)

It's worse than that! The girl in question was a member of our group! Not the girlfriend's friend, but she was my friend. The boyfriend and the girl had been flirting for months while the girlfriend was in the states, and only did something about it the day after the girlfriend got back from the states! Great timing!

She has been told to dump him many times, but she keeps whining that he has no where to live, has to pay for his car. This girl is smoking hot, and she's putting up with crap! Can you imagine!?

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by freddy (513 days ago)

Hi JC,
as usual you have a way of putting things that seems to help in some way. My wife has told me many times that she will always love me but now and again like the last couple of days she gets distraught and does not want me around. I know I should back off and give her space but I worry about thinking I do not care that she is upset so I tend to fuss over her which is I guess makes things worse but it is hard not to. She has gone on a SPA visit today and has a girls night out tonight so I will just have to wait and see how she feels tomorrow. The only comfort for me is that when we are apart even for a day or two we always seem to end up closer.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Justin Credible (Part Deux) (513 days ago)

>Woz's Pup - Its called one of these two things: Immaturity OR Insecurity. Anyone that fully knows themselves wouldnt make that many crap excuses for an obvious dime a dozen loser. And shame on that other friend for being such a skank too. Pfff. No morals these days!

>freddy - you got mail, dude. And hey...sounds like you are on a wee bit of a downer right now, so just let it run its course. We kinda knew this wouldnt just fix itself, you seem totally sincere about wanting to do the time, so then do it and like I said before "fight the good fight for love" and at least in the end, even if it all goes tits up, you'll know you did everything you could to make it work.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Woz's Pup (513 days ago)

I still say he should back off and give her space. Thats what my friend wants her boyfriend to do.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Justin Credible (Part Deux) (513 days ago)

Yeah but your friends bf is nowhere near the diamond geez freddy is, although I dont know your friends geez lol. *whispering now* i still think you should tell your mate to dump that chump who got it on with your other "friend". I mean, if you discect that, they had ALL the time in the world to get it on while your friend was away, so why did this other circle-of-trust "friend" get it on with your friends bf only AFTER she got back? Totally yuk of that "friend", the bf is stupid, for sure, but ohhh no for the other party.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Aijin (part whatever) (513 days ago)

Freddy: this has been going on and off for quite a while now and if I remember correctly it has not exactly been plain sailing for you before and after… now for some reason that you still deny as a drunken ONS you betrayed your wife and have spent the last however many months trying to convince her that it was a genuine mistake and have been desperately trying to make it up to her… she knew things were going to erm difficult when she entered into the relationship with you and I do not know but just maybe she has been milking this a tad too long… as JC mentioned above somewhere does she still love you? You seem to be trying to do everything to convince her to forgive and forget yet…

Hmmm and apologies for no suggestion as what to do? Best of luck and I do hope she isn’t faking it and attempting to get more blood from the proverbial stone per say…

(I am based in Tokyo)

Posted by Scarlet lady (513 days ago)

Freddy,
i kind of understand what your wife is going through and, as someone who is coming out the other side of a long dark hole, I’ll try to explain how you might try to fix this. Firstly, I know others have said it but I would highly recommend you convince your wife to try counselling – it’s painful and awful but it’s like going to any other doctor to fix a problem – they are professionals and there to help. A church, in my experience, can be full of the most judgemental people around and is no place to share marital problems, unless in a confidential way with your vicar – not members of the congregation.
I think you said it’s been a matter of months – well listen mate it’s going to take a hell of a lot longer than that for her to get over this. You didn’t forget to take out the trash – you broke your marriage vows. You’ve probably beaten yourself up enough over it so I won’t go into when where and why, but you need to realise (and accept) that her love for you is never going to be the same as before. The freshest, best part of your marriage is gone forever – don’t kid yourself that you will get it back. You won’t. But it’s up to you to see if it can be repaired into something new, that is worth saving. And for her part, she needs to realise that she probably won’t ever forget. but no-one is perfect and everyone deserves a second chance – but not a third and remember this.
You need to take full responsibility for what you did. There’s no “she wasn’t giving me this that or the other.” Even if your marriage wasn’t perfect, saying that there was something missing is indirectly blaming her for your own choices/ actions and will make her even more resentful. Think how you would feel if the shoe was on the other foot and she tried to blame you. If she’s anything like me there are days when she will want to kill you for what you did. The anger is that intense! Love and hate are not so far apart. It's indifference you need to worry about.

You also need to be totally honest and this is something my husband has difficulty with because he thinks it will hurt me even more. Not true. After such a betrayal more lies just add fuel to the fire. As women we instinctively know when lies are being told or information withheld and trust can never be rebuilt in this atmosphere. But I’d recommend doing this with a psychologist/ counsellor - as it’s so much easier to talk about sensitive things calmly with an impartial third person – he won’t let you start screaming or throwing things at each other and helps both people see the other’s point of view.
You also have to give constant – and I mean constant - reassurance that you will never be so stupid again. Maybe she does need some time on her own – I wouldn’t be afraid of a separation. Many couples get back together after a separation. Give her space. My husband sounds similar to you – fusses over me all the time when I need to be on my own. It’s suffocating. Anyway, this has been a bit of a ramble but good luck and I want you to know that it is possible to fix it but it is damn hard and takes enormous effort on both sides.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Woz's Pup (513 days ago)

Been trying to tell my friend to kick him out, but she's too soft. They've been together for seven years (that time limit thing again!) and she seems to like having him around. Silly girl.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by freddy (513 days ago)

Thank you, Scarlet lady, our marriage was fine, my wife was in no way responsible for what happened, I have no problem accepting responsibility and only want to try to make her comfortable with me again. It is easy for me to say it will not happen again and I firmly believe it will not but I am not the one who was betrayed. I am trying to give her time and a new assignment for me means I will most likely be away for quite a lot of the next three months so hopefully absence/distance will help her.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Woz's Pup (513 days ago)

You want to 'make' her comfortable with you? Sounds to me like you want your cake and eat it too! Cheat on an apparently innocent woman who was in 'no way responsible for what happened' and then expect her to take you back? No way!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by freddy (513 days ago)

JC you got mail

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Justin Credible (Part Deux) (513 days ago)

As I said to freddy back in the day, you never know how you will react to a betrayal until it happens to you. Absolutism isnt exactly an ideal way of dealing with things in any part of ones life. Saying "if blah blah happens I will leave" is all good and dandy but it doesnt always work out as smooth when you have been betrayed out of the blue. Maybe freddys wife wants so much to forgive him and has all good intentions to, but she's finding the reality a heck of a lot harder to deal with.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Aijin (part whatever) (513 days ago)

Understood but freddy seems to be doing sooo much and I really do not see much attempt of understanding from his wife... yup he f&^%$# up big time and has spent and is spending all his time/energy trying to convince her that it was a stupid mistake and he will try everything to make ammends but to what avail? This was not an affair it was a foolish guy and surely she should by now see freddy for the good guy he was and the guy she fell in love with and art least try to put this behind them and try to make life better if only for one day at a time...

If she loves him and wants to be with him then they both need to make an effort...

(I am based in Tokyo)

Posted by Woz's Pup (513 days ago)

He doesn't deserve any understanding. Maybe he should have thought about what would happen before he'd did it.

If it was a stupid mistake, what's going to stop him being stupid in the future?

Good guys don't cheat! My guy is a good guy, and if he ever cheated it would mean he'd had a labotomy first as it's completely out his nature! Freddy is doing exactly what my friend's boyfriend is doing, and that's why I find it hard to have sympathy for him. If she can't forgive you, you can't force her. No amount of chocolates, flowers, or saying sorry is going to change the fact that you did something that's wrong.

I'm not saying it's black and white, men cheat because they're not satisfied with what they're getting at home. The guy I know cheated for an ego boost, the three times that I know of. Maybe Freddy is the same.

It's just strong echoes of what happened with my friends, and the girlfriend is just not interested anymore.

If you love someone, let them go.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Justin Credible (Part Deux) (513 days ago)

Whats going to stop him from being stupid in the future? Who knows? I personally I would like to think that the important life lesson he has learned from this experience will stop him from being a plebe in the future. Isnt that what faith is all about? None of us is infallible. Nobody is perfect, his wifes wish to forgive him has nothing to do with one of us insisting she shouldnt, we would all hope that when we screw up in life...when we stumble or falter...like any imperfect humanbeing...that someone will be there to have a little empathy and offer a scoop of forgiveness to go with the slice of humble pie we serve ourselves.

Even good people screw up. I've lived long enough to see a lot of folks who say "My partner would NEVER cheat and if he/she did I would kick him/her to the curb" end up eating their words and totally crushed...and no, they didnt deserve it, but blind faith that someone is perfectly cut to your specifications...is simply not realistic. We all hope for the best in someone and that is all we can hope for. What happened in Freddy's case was totally unfortunate and has turned both his and his wifes life upside down. Freddy wasnt the guy who cruises WC for something to aid him in pulling his trousers down, he was far from that, but with a series of unfortunate events and a poor guage of his alcohol consumption he ended up in the sh*thole. No excuses for that, but if it was your partner and really you walking in those shoes (as you mentioned you have never been cheated on) its honestly a whole different ball game.

We all have our own personal baggage that taints our views on a subject this sensitive...it makes us less objective in many ways, myself included I'm sure.

To a certain extent, Aijin has a point...its important that he isnt being punished too much for all his effort to be penitent, but as I also said to him ages ago, if he wants to deal with the penance and if he is genuinely sorry and cant see life without her, he best put up with it and be patient. Not everyone is lucky enough to taste the sweet fruit of forgiveness in life, its very rare to come by.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Woz's Pup (513 days ago)

Personally, I don't think having sex is the same as tripping up. I mean, you have to make a conscious decision to go to the room, to take off your clothes, to do the kissing and the other stuff. There are many moments during that time line where you can stop and say, no this isn't right.

And even before you go up to her room, I mean, there are signals and events that you can stop before they happen!

Sleeping with someone is not an accident, it's a conscious choice you make to disregard the person you love and get some attention and affection and an ego boost from someone else.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Aijin (part whatever) (513 days ago)

Woz's Pup: yup but we are talking about damage litigation now... this happened a long time ago and yup freddy was crucified here for what happened especially as we were party to what went on before and no doubt some of the threads are still up but some of us actually believed and still do in giving certain folk a second chance... after all his wife does...

He is trying to save his marriage... that effort is not a bad thing and deserves some respect...

After all humble pie does not taste good... I can honestly state that I have had 'accidental' sex and have awoken in the morn to a serious WTF happened last night situation... older and wiser now... or at least I hope so!

(I am based in Tokyo)

Posted by wishicould (511 days ago)

Your wife needs time and you need patience - lots of it. There is no way to undo what's been done. It cannot be re-written. It cannot be erased. You need to over-write painful memories with good ones. Start making happy, happy memories. Hopefully, sooner than later, the blissful new memories will override those of pain, images, betrayal, hurtful words exchanged... Start today. Start NOW.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by rice_pay (507 days ago)

JC & Scarlettlady - Good stuff.

Freddy - prod on. have faith you're doing the right thing. But if all comes to a naught, Cest la vie.

Woz pup - stop yelping. pray you don't get yrself in situation where you begging for mercy.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by Woz's Pup (507 days ago)

rice pay, as a mature adult, i know the signs of when someone is coming on to you, and i know how to gracefully (or not so gracefully depending on alcohol intake) let a gentleman know I am happily boyfriend-ed. I wouldn't get myself into this situation.

People who don't want to cheat, don't cheat! He can't claim he slipped and fell into bed with her! Oops! It wasn't an accident. He made a conscious choice and he should live with the consequences. Putting pressure on his wife to forgive him is not fair. He needs to back off and give her some breathing room, and expect a couple months to years of rebuilding the happy memories wishicould mentioned.

He gets no sympathy from me!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by rice_pay (505 days ago)

Woz pup..

Havn't you done the most stupid thing & then asked yrself WTF?

But point taken in a situation like this it's a series of stupid things.. what r the odds?
sorry Fred.. Woz pup is right, you screwed up (don't mind the pun)

Well, alcohol sure was the big catalyst.
Moral: Go easy on the drink?
But Chinese has a saying: when a person says he is drunk - it's 70% drunk, 30% sober..

Go figure.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by Woz's Pup (505 days ago)

Rice pay, I never cheated on my boyfriend, despite getting offers! AND being drunk!

Fidelity is not a myth, it's not unobtainable. If you want to be faithful, you will be. If you don't want to be, then you have to accept the consequences.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by tia (505 days ago)

@ Aijin: "Accidental sex"? You slipped and it fell in? I have never bought that theory.

Freddy, I am trying to recall your story. Your wife found out that while she was away, you had another woman at your flat, correct?

You say that after a few days apart you come back together better and stronger than before. Maybe a break is what she needs. Set a time limit (2-3 months), seek professional help in that time (NOT at a church...I agree that they are overly judgmental) and try to come up with a solution that you can both live with.

Yes, fidelity is possible and real. However, people are people and mistakes happen. You seem genuinely sorry that you f*&^ed up once and I don't think you would do it again, given how much grief this is causing you now.

It's still a fairly new hurt for your wife and while you are telling her how sorry you are and promising it will never happen again, she is still trying to come to terms with it herself. Like ANY hurt, days will be good, days will be bad. You and your wife have to find out if there are more good days ahead than bad ones. At the moment, she might be wanting to punish you a bit for hurting her so badly and as JC said, if you are willing to do the penance, it might be worth it.

Good luck!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Kate71 (499 days ago)

Freddy

Have you ever thought about just giving your wife some space? I mean real space - not just a day at the spa and a night out with the girls... you say that she was under a lot of pressure from the church/ her friends and you to save the marriage- but it seems to me that she hasn't had an opportunity to go through the grief and anger and come out the other side - it's only then that she will be able to decide whether or not she loves you and is prepared to trust you again.

It will be scary giving her real time out - you will feel insecure and you will run the risk of her walking away... but at least you will be respecting her and her emotions...

keep pushing her and you'll lose her for good... give her space - if she comes to you, you'll know that she really wants to make it work - then you're half way there.

If you want your wife to trust you again, then you need to trust her too.

Good luck

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by freddy (499 days ago)

Thanks for your comment Kate71, we are lucky that we have a holiday home where my wife can take off to when she wants and stay as long as she wants. So far it has been her that has decided she only wants/needs a few days to get over her anger/grief or whatever she has been feeling at the time and she has decided when to fly back home. I also have to travel with work and am about to start a two month assignment away from home with only one week at the end of the 1st month when my wife will join me in Bali for a holiday. I think this gap might be just what she needs right now and I am hoping our holiday will be very special as it also falls around her birthday.

They say absence makes the heart grow fonder, I sure hope they are right.

Hi Tia, I remember your excitement over your then impending marriage, I trust all is well with you and yours.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Pupalicious (499 days ago)

Here's some helpful advice, don't cheat while you're on your business trip!

Personally I don't think you should be forgiven, if you loved her you wouldn't have done it in the first place.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by freddy (499 days ago)

Pupalicious,You really do like standing on your holier than thou pedestal, for your information I have been travelling regularly in Asia for years and have never seen the point in hiring services for the night as it were. I sincerely hope your boyfriend is as angelic as you state or that the people who post on here are still sympathetic when when/if the mighty have fallen. In my experience local men(I have worked/travelled with many) are just as likely if not more so to be maintaining a mistress or using hookers as Expat men, just look at the SCMP everyday on the brothels in Jordan, Mong Kok, Yau Ma Tei etc that have just been served notice by the police, my Inspector friend assuresme that the customer base there is nearly 100% local.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by casey (499 days ago)

hi freddy,

i hardly post anything here but i have been reading your thread for a while now. All I can say is that I am really touched by your honesty and the hardwork and patience you put in saving your marriage. You made a mistake and you are brave to face it, which is wonderful because not all men or women are brave to do that.

All I want to say is wishing you all the best and try to plan something special during Bali holiday with your wife. Something to remind her who you were when you marry her, show her you still love her like before and will love her forever. Women always have soft spot for men they were in love with. Update us your good news after Bali trip.

:))

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Pupalicious (499 days ago)

My boyfriend is perfect in the respect that he will never cheat. It's just not in his personality. He is a really good man.

The same can't be said for myself. I have cheated, not in this relationship, but in past ones, and I still stand by what I say. I didn't deserve to be forgiven (not that he ever found out) and the only reason I cheated was because I didn't really love him. Deep down.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Aijin (part whatever) (499 days ago)

Pup: Never say never... you have a lot to learn but time will teach...

Enjoy the meantime but please try to take into consideration that a lot of the folk on here have seen a tad more life than you... good and bad and it is not all plain sailing however much you would like it to be.

(I am based in Tokyo)

Posted by watergirl (499 days ago)

Freddy, I would just like to second Casey's words to you. I too rarely post on here but have been following your story and it seems like you are doing everything in your power to fix what was a foolish and terrible mistake. Best of luck with it and I hope your patience and hard work will help with rebuilding your marriage.

Pupalicious, I think I read on another thread that you were in your early 20's? Trust me, life is very black and white at that age and with more life experience, you will find your opinions and views changing. There are a whole lot of grey areas out there.

You would be wise to settle down on the opinionated yapping. You never know when statements with the word 'never' in them can come back and bite you....

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Pupalicious (499 days ago)

The impression I get from your posts everyone, is the older you get the more limited choices you have, so it's easier to forgive.

People deserve to be treated better. There are men out there, my friends are some of them, who won't cheat on you and will treat you with the respect you deserve.

Everyone has the right to not get cheated on. If someone's going to cheat on you, why on earth would you ever want them to touch you ever again!?!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by justin credulous (499 days ago)

Agree with Aijin - never say never...

(I am based in Iraq)

Posted by Aijin (part whatever) (499 days ago)

Not going to get into a tit-for-tat but Pup you will be surprised to know that the older you get the opportunities become unlimited as you have nothing to prove to your peers only yourself... But I shall agree the ability to forgive does come with maturity as does compassion and understanding ... and only life experience can teach you that.

Folk fall in and out of love... there is nothing you can do to change that. Life throws up the unexpected even if you proclaim I would never think like that. You said that you cheated but through that you realized that you did not love the Guy you cheated on. Freddy cheated and realized he loved his wife. Folk at all ages make mistakes and with hindsight wish they could turn back time. Freddy is one of these Guys and he should be commended and encouraged in his efforts.

Best of luck Freddy and I do hope that things work out for the best... Oh and I also agree with one of the other posters (apologies) who suggested that some advice not from within her church/immediate community may help.

(I am based in Tokyo)

Posted by freddy (499 days ago)

OK sorry Pupalicious, I blew off a bit there, I honestly believed I would never be compromised in the way that I was and have had a real tough time trying to figure out what really happened and why but still cannot rationalise it, neither can most of my friends who have known me for years and still believe I must have been tricked in some way. Anyway just wanted to say that age has nothing to do with it, my wife is 14 years my junior, very attractive and has plenty of options if that's what she wanted. Our substantial property and vehichles in the Phils are in her name and we have joint savings accounts. She has the choice to make her own decisions and so far that decision is that our mariage is worth saving. She is in no way dependant on me. I utterly respect her and am just amazed at how she has coped so far.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by casey (499 days ago)

Pupalicious>

true the older you get, the more limited choices you have....but partly because as you get older, you become more selective too cos you just can smell what is coming sometimes....believe me, most of the times i wish i was wrong, but heck!!!

you are also right abount people needed to be treated better....in fact, all you have mentioned are right!!! unfortunately, that is an ideal world and not the world we live in....

i know this sounds cliche, but to error is human and to forgive is divine ( did I get it right??? brain is slow today...)...we forgive not because our choices are limited but rather we have made mistakes ourselves and we know how easy sometimes it can be to make the wrong move and before we know it, it is too late...but that is life, that is when we learn too... i think you have to learn to listen with your heart and not be too judgemental....and no, i have not cheated on anyone but have been cheated on before by someone i loved very much...i forgave him....however, the relationship did not last, still till today, i have no regrets...

:))

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Pupalicious (499 days ago)

Okay, I get that the world isn't black and white and all that. But, c'mon, you don't cheat by accident. You're in a bar, or a restaurant, or the gym, and you're flirting, there's a point where someone is going to suggest going back to their place/your place/a hotel/somewhere more private. At that point, you can say no! Sex and cheating isn't this thing that just happens in the blink of an eye, it's something that happens over the course of many hours and there are lots of opportunities for you to stop. You don't kiss her, you don't take your clothes off, and you don't get into bed. It's that simple. I know people can get carried away in the moment, but if your significant other is really in your heart, then during the course of all these hours, you think about them and you stop what you're doing.

I mean, no one's perfect. I've had a fight with my boyfriend before I've gone out, and I've let guys buy me drinks just cos I'm mad and want some attention, but that's where it should stop! I don't think cheating is this big accidental mistake that someone makes, it's a chain of mistakes. It's not forgiving just one thing that someone did, it's forgiving the chain of events that lead up to that point. And it's forgiving the fact that they didn't stop themselves while they progressed along that chain.

It's forgiving him chatting her up, it's forgiving him buying her a drink, it's forgiving him flirting, it's forgiving him suggesting they sleep together (or accepting the suggestion), it's forgiving him getting in a cab with her, and all the rest. It's not just as cut and dry as just forgiving him.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Aijin (part whatever) (499 days ago)

It also is forgiving to not know that in some bars folks drinks get spiked and folk get taken advantage of...

(I am based in Tokyo)

Posted by casey (499 days ago)

sigh~~~~

you are damn right again pup....but the thread here is freddy asking advises how to save his marriage...i am sure he agrees with you that cheating is wrong...no one here argues that cheating is right and we should all go for it....

we are dealing with the aftermath here dear....if freddy's wife post here asking if she should forgive him....by all means, jump in and shout no if you want....here we are helping the guilty husband to win back his wife because he is REALLY sorry and he loves his wife....it is a marriage we are talking about, through good and bad....not bf/gf relationship....it is a vow and it is all up to the husband/ wife to decide how they wish to proceed....

p/s: now i remember why i have stopped posting...it is bloody addictive....

:p

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by tia (499 days ago)

Freddy: Absence can make the heart grow fonder, that is true. Prolonged absences can make the memories disappear as well.

It's good that your wife has a place to go when she is feeling unhappy around you and needs space. It's good that you are not rushing her to come back as well.

I hope the trip to Bali works out well for you guys and I do hope that you can mend this.

As for me, I just back from 2 great weeks with my husband. I miss him terribly, of course, but will see him again soon! The first 6 months has been pretty good, so far, thanks for asking!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by goldenleaves (499 days ago)

Freddy... you don't need Pupalicious to forgive you... just your wife! ... You already know how badly you feel, you don't need anyone else to tell you that you did wrongly... and we all get a sense of that. The fact that you are posting here, with the honest facts presented without embellishment or attempts at minimising them, says a lot to me, and indicates a desire to come to terms with your actions, find the cause of them (which is clearly not your wife) and find a way for you and her to live happily again.

I do suggest that you at least go to counselling. Stress from other areas of your life, or unresolved anxieties... even perhaps a self-sabotaging element in your personality may be to blame here.... A trained psychologist can help you get to the bottom of this.

It sounds like you had a good life with your wife up till now... Could be you thought it all too good to be true on a subconscious level... maybe you have had some deep pain in the past which made you feel you don't deserve such happiness and good fortune.... Who knows what it was... you are clearly not a serial adulterer.

Every case is different. Pupalicious... I don't want to be condescending here... but it isn't that we older people have fewer choices... we just know how complex life really is. When one reaches mid-life... some time back for me... one really sees the world from a completely different view... that's not to say, one loses clarity on what's right or wrong... but rather gains a whole new awareness of the underlying forces that have shaped our lives and which we often only become aware of, once a lifetime of experiences and patterns have revealed themselves...Young people's perspectives are valuable though... but I think you are being too hard on Freddy in this instance. His case isn't the same as yours or even your girlfriend's. He has built his life with this woman.

Freddy... I hope you grow old with this woman.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Meiguoren (498 days ago)

There's a quote, "You can control your actions, but you can't control the consequences of your actions." Well, the consequences are real and there may not be much you can do about them. But there is one thing I noticed: Did you cheat on her in her own house, in her own bed? Because if you did, she might be having her nose rubbed in it every single time she is in her house with you, in her bed with you. If that is the case, it might make sense to move away from there and get to a more neutral environment.

(I am based in Guangzhou)

Posted by @@ (498 days ago)

I would strongly recommend counselling, probably individual and then together.

Trying to recover from a broken trust is tough and a rollercoaster of emotion. It is natural for your wife to have highs and lows but she probably needs some tools to help her through those low periods.

I hope you can convince her to give it more time, people who have been there will tell you it took them a couple of years to get back on track - a pretty big effort but often worth it when a wayward spouse has shown such remorse.

An infidelity can raise so many issues for the betrayed partner, personal doubt, self loathing etc. It’s possible your wife is dealing with a lot more than just the infidelity. I’m sure you know it wasn’t her fault but she may just be thinking - what did I do wrong, am I not attractive enough?

It’s likely your wife has her own mind video of what went on, that’s something very difficult to get through and will torture in those wee hours, some people swear by wearing a rubber band on their wrist and any time the video starts up they snap the band, it seems to help break the thought process.

A good counsellor should offer advice that will help you both with positive actions to move forward. Simple things like coming to an agreement on how you socialise but remember to set realistic boundaries. It would be silly to say "you can’t drink when out" but rather "enjoy your wine with dinner but stop there - don’t continue on bar after bar".

Find a counsellor that you are both comfortable with and perhaps one that neither of you has a connection with, it may make it easier for both of you.

I wish you the best, @@

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by sam_123 (493 days ago)

Pupalicious> You know what, I DID think like you once. SERIOUSLY. Everyone told me they want a husband just like mine cos he is sososo gd and sososo in love with me. And I never thought of cheating cos how can he? he is with me 24-7, he calls me when he goes out, he wants sex with every single night. Well, he cheated. I thought I would never ever forgive him but guess what, I did. I stayed to work it out cos he was on his knees begging me to forgive, and he was like Freddy, sincere and sorry for what he did.

Freddy, my advice to you is be more patient. Make no mistake that I have no sympathy for you for your cheating ways. You broke your marriage vows, you disrespect your wife in the worst posible way, so you need to make it up for your wife, FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

Your wife sounds like me, a churchgoer with lots of traditional values and morals. I dare say probably cos of this good nature is she still with you. She has likely forgiven you (easy part) but forgetting? well, after 2 years of clean marriage, I STILL get my bouts of depression. I suggest you re-evaluate your expectations if u want life to go on like before after x no of mths/years. Your marriage will NEVER be the same again. You may become stronger, more adult, but don't expect it to be like before.

Are you still having heart-to-heart talk with your wife? Is she still asking a lot of questions about your affair, questions that you don't want to answer, but she wants to know? I remmebered I wanted every detail, even sexual positions, dunno how to explain it but i need to know so i can put pass it.

I suggest you accomodate her moods and requests as best as you can manage. I suspect she hasn't reconcile things in herself yet. At the same time you need to talk to her constantly about how you feel. Don't be afraid to tell her about your feeling either, your hopelessness, your loneliness.

Good luck.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by closetcase (493 days ago)

just a few words to you, as a women.

Remember to call her or send a SMS to her, when you are apart. This way she will know that you are not doing something stupid again, and you are thinking about her.

Make sure you let her know that you can be reached every minute.

I've been thru it, what I need back then is just simple re-affirming of love and the prove that my guy has learned the lesson.

(I am based in Shanghai)

Posted by L42 (492 days ago)

Hi Freddy,
Your wife may still love you, but she doesn't like you righ now. You've crashed her world and while you feel badly now, she's not going to recover as quickly as you'd like. My husband of 10 years cheated on me once 18 months ago. It took 6 months for me to stop picturing him with someone else but I still have nightmares from time to time. There are some things you're just certain about and when they're taken away, it's very hard to get over. She doesn't feel safe with you now. As closetcase said, make sure you're easily reachable and call/text/email more often so she knows she's on your mind. Don't do anything that looks at all sinister because you've shown her that you have the ability to lie to her. She may never feel safe again. I hope you do get through this. I think my husband and I will, but 18 months later, I'm still not sure.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by rice_pay (492 days ago)

Been a while.. just came back fr trip to reflect.. Some peace & quiet helped..

My situation is similar to Freddy's thou' it's not due to infidelity. Our problem lies in the differences in our backgrounds/cultures & expectations. She has basically lost trust in my ability to meet her expectations & is tired of working on the marriage. This has been close to a year now & I've recently moved out of the matrimonial home (for the 2nd time) at her insistence.

BUT I never lose faith (thanks to encouragement fr friends and here).. despite admittedly sometimes I pray to for patience/strength to forgive/forget her for what she's putting the family through now (we have 2 lovely youngs kids, you see) & her lack of commitment to the marriage. But I must take responsibility also for having caused her to think/behave as she had for the past 10 mths.

I guess, after much soul searching, I end up asking what are the most important things in my life to.. and I always arrive at the decision.. to accept her for better, for worse.. Give her time & space... And might I add, I noticed her attitude towards me improving thou' I realise the road may still be long & tough..

Whatever age, whatever circumstances, whatever race, whatever... I believe these meaningful words apply..

Power is of two kinds. One is obtained by the fear of punishment and the other by acts of love. Power based on love is a thousand times more effective and permanent than the one derived from fear of punishment. –Gandhi

Freddy.. Don't lose faith in your marriage.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by freddy (491 days ago)

To all the recent posters, thank you for words of support and direct honesty. I know I have life time with my wife to look ahead to and we have just returned from a short trip to Palawan to sell one of our properties there, we had time to make a couple of dives and re-discovered our love of underwater photography. We had a really great time and I am sure our time apart due to my work which starts soon will be bearable as we have a short break in Bali to look forward to in the middle of the assignment and a friends wedding in Hawaii in early July. Tgank you all again.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Annie_NG (491 days ago)

.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by marieantoinette (491 days ago)

Umm, rice pay, when you say she's "tired of working on the marriage..", does she think it's been a one-sided effort, or have you been giving it your all too, to make it work?

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by rice_pay (489 days ago)

hi marie..

i probably "woke up" a bit too late for her acceptance. but i worked darn hard for the last year & granted i'd pushed her to the corner where she is now.. she just plain gave up (maybe still <5% chance for her if put a number to it)...

encouraged by friends & relatives, i have faith.. it's not easy.. to slowly build on the 5% she has now to something more i hope.. i sometimes do question should there a deadline for forgiveness & it's likely she's set hers when she broached divorce. i try very hard to tell myself to extend the deadline for her esp. after some of the "damages" she inflicted on the family in order to get back at me.. I tell myself I have to be more forgiving & more patient.. esp. to her, the mother of my children..

My friends tell me.. I probably have done all I can... Now it's all in her hands.., i'm aware i've to be prepared for the worst too.. & move on in the event she finally decided the split is final.. I must be strong for the children... and also for her... That's my cross to bear. For I know too I'm far from perfect...

Que sera sera..

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by Meiguoren (489 days ago)

Hi Freddy, glad you had a great time! One time when both my h. and I were working really long hours we drifted apart, and had to re-find common interests. We took up a new hobby that we could enjoy together! Another thing I might add is that I'm not of the "give distance" school. I think distance leads people to grow apart. I'd personally advocate doing everything you can to let her know you love her, including physical affection that's not necessarily sexual. Tell her you love her, bring her small gifts or send phone sms to let her know she is on our mind, give her hugs, get some massage oil and pamper her with a body massage, say!? You know her personality, so you know what she likes. Give her happy memories and thoughts to displace the troublesome ones. I really like the rubber band on the wrist idea, but that's something she would do and is therefore out of your control. Focus on what you can do.

(I am based in Guangzhou)

Posted by freddy (379 days ago)

this is a message of thanks to all who posted here before of hope to those who are stuggling with infidelity. Since June my wife and I have beome very close, our time apart allowed her to closely examine what she felt and what she wants. Our trip to the USA for vacation and to attend her best friends wedding must have done something as when we returned and I went off to work in Singapore I recieved a call at 4.20am from her declaring that she is pregnant. I cannot wait to be a dad, she and her family and doctor are ecstatic as we were expecting to have go IVF as she had little chance to concieve due to past illness. It truly seems like a gift from above and I am not a particularly spiritual person. Our relationship is stronger than ever even though she still has occasional depressed times when something reminds her of the my past infidelity, even sometimes just innocently cuddled up watching novie, a scene will jolt her memory. I just make an excuse to go and do something, make a drink or whatever. I am learning how to cope much better with these moments and she seems to have truly forgiven me. I know am very lucky and not all relationships will survive infidelity but if you love your partner try, keep trying and then try some more. It is worth it, believe me.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by tia (379 days ago)

CONGRATS Freddy! I wish you and your wife all the best of luck with the new baby and the future. :)

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Bubas (379 days ago)

That's so great !! congratulations !! I am so happy for you ! Don't ever forget love you have for your wife. The night where you cheated on her you maybe forget that a bit..never forget how much it will hurt..AND fight for your wedding each single time of your life. Make everything to make the love between you bigger and bigger.
Once again ..congratulations.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by wired (378 days ago)

dear freddy, I have followed your post from the begining, and although acknowledged what you did was unaceptable (as you have) I send you great joy of hope and success in the new stage of your marrage and lives together. Good on you for persuing your number one love....miricals happen around us all the time, this one is yours and hers. All the best to your extraordinary wife and pending child. Your sincerity (of great regrets in life) have survived due to your total commitment towards true love and extraordiary truthfullness. Now, I have a great deal of respect to you and to your wife. Live on with great love, truth, trust, and fun! To have overcome what you two have is inspiring in a way...I don't know either of you but at this point I feel joy for you both. YeeeHaaaa!!!!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by flashback (378 days ago)

Freddy this is inspiring news. Congratulations to both you and your wife. Thomas Jefferson believed that human nature can be changed. John Adams, that human nature can't be changed but must be understood. You (and others who have made remarkable developments in their lives) have demonstrated that human nature can only be changed when it is understood. It is inspiring to see the honest way you worked your way through your problems on this site to reach understanding of yourself and your wife. That's what it's all about. You deserve the blessing of a child.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Aijin (partly perpetual) (378 days ago)

Freddy... wow and congratulations...

Chuffed to bits for you both and know full well that this is deserved and as others stated a sort of karmic reward/compensation... and will definately help put the past into perspective...

Hugs and love to you three...

Anyone else noticied how things are most good at present?... mehappy...

(I am based in Unspecified)

Posted by Justin Credible (374 days ago)

Awesome news, Freddy!

Congratulations are due for you both, much positive chi out to you, the missus and your future together.

(Totally happy for you! Kidlets rock! You'll be a good dad, I know it!)

(I am based in Unspecified)

Posted by Well I'll Be (373 days ago)

congrats are in order I suppose,

hope the kid is yours,

beware, the female of the species

(I am based in Hong Kong)